Former NATO chief on Europe and U.S. relations : NPR

[ad_1] NPR's Mary Louise Kelly speaks with Anders Fogh Rasmussen, former prime minister of Denmark and former head of NATO, forward of the Munich Safety Convention.

MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:

Not so way back. For those who had requested me to foretell the place - which nation - would possibly see huge anti-U.S. protests in 2026, Denmark wouldn't have topped my record - steady, affluent, NATO ally Denmark. However every week or so in the past, Danish veterans took to the streets of Copenhagen in anger, anger over President Trump's threats to take Greenland and over his declare that NATO troops who fought aspect by aspect with the U.S. in Afghanistan had, quote, "stayed somewhat again, little off the entrance strains," finish quote. In reality, Denmark misplaced extra troopers per capita than the U.S. did in Afghanistan.

What's the best way ahead for the U.S. and Denmark? Or, for that matter, for the U.S. and NATO? Our subsequent visitor is effectively positioned to discipline each these questions. He's the previous prime minister of Denmark and the previous secretary common of NATO. Anders Fogh Rasmussen, welcome to ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.

ANDERS FOGH RASMUSSEN: Thanks for having me.

KELLY: What goes by your thoughts as I describe livid protests in opposition to the U.S. in your capital, in Copenhagen?

RASMUSSEN: It is incomprehensible, in a approach. It is a very painful course of. Since childhood, I've admired the US. I've thought of the US the pure chief of the free world. We've been probably the most constructive and closest allies of the US. And regardless of all that, in a single 12 months, the Trump administration has truly modified the angle in Denmark. In accordance with a latest ballot, 60% of the Danish folks now really feel that the U.S. is an adversary.

KELLY: Sorry. I simply needed to verify I had heard you appropriately. You are saying 60 - six-zero?

RASMUSSEN: Six-zero % now considers the US an adversary.

KELLY: You simply stated you grew up pondering of the U.S. as an ally, because the pure chief of the free world. Do you continue to?

RASMUSSEN: Properly, I've at all times thought of the US a worldwide policeman. However it appears that evidently the policeman now desires to retire, so we have now to exchange that place. We'd like somebody to steer the free world. My concept is that democracies of the world ought to unite. I name it a D7. The European Union, the U.Ok., Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan and South Korea might be the core in such a cooperation between the world's free democracies.

KELLY: Let me flip to one of many sharpest factors of latest pressure, which is Greenland. Washington - President Trump has made clear he want to management Greenland. He has threatened to get it a method or one other. Is it clear to you what this framework deal is that he says has resolved his issues about Greenland?

RASMUSSEN: No, and I believe no person is aware of. However that is precisely the trick - that you simply make a deal, the content material is a bit unclear, and now we're again on a extra, what I might name, conventional diplomatic monitor. There's been established a working group between Denmark, Greenland and the US, and in that working group we are going to determine how you can accommodate the respectable issues of President Trump, as a result of I absolutely agree that we must always have extra army presence in Greenland. We must always have extra investments in mining in Greenland. We must always ensure that Chinese language and Russian funding won't happen in Greenland.

KELLY: I need to ask a couple of remark I noticed you make wherein you stated, and I quote, "the time for flattery is over. Sufficient is sufficient." That is a reference to President Trump?

RASMUSSEN: Sure, certainly, as a result of the Europeans have tried all types of technique, together with flattering, but it surely does not work. President Trump solely respects one factor - unity and a agency stance. So after his newest threats to impose greater tariffs on European international locations that didn't assist his want for Greenland, the Europeans determined to unite and rise up in opposition to Trump, and it labored.

KELLY: Your successor as NATO chief, Mark Rutte, he says Europe is dreaming - his phrase - dreaming if it thinks it may defend itself with out the U.S. Is he incorrect?

RASMUSSEN: Properly, I imagine that NATO will stay the cornerstone of European North Atlantic safety, not least as a result of we have now the nuclear umbrella supplied by the US. However inside NATO, we have to strengthen what I name the European pillar. I believe it ought to be centered round a coalition of the keen - plenty of European international locations which might be succesful and keen to do what is required to defend ourselves in Europe. And I do imagine {that a} strengthened European pillar will ultimately additionally strengthen NATO. For too lengthy, we have now in Europe been depending on a mix of low-cost vitality from Russia, low-cost items from China and low-cost safety from the US. That mannequin does not work any longer. We've to scale back our dependency on exterior companions. We should have the ability to do extra on our personal.

KELLY: A number of the questions, a number of the tensions you and I are speaking about had been on full show, and really publicly, final month in Davos - Davos, Switzerland - the place I believe it is truthful to say, a lot of the agenda, a lot of the bandwidth there was hijacked by the dialog about Greenland. A number of those self same folks, a number of the identical world leaders are headed this week to Munich. I do know you might be headed to Munich, Germany, for the annual Munich Safety Convention. What are you awaiting?

RASMUSSEN: Properly, I am watching for 2 issues. First, Secretary of State Rubio will lead the American delegation, and I hope to take heed to some extra reconciliatory remarks from his aspect. And the second ingredient I might be in search of and listening to is the European need and intention to face by itself toes and specifically deciding to deploy troops to Ukraine to again up safety ensures for Ukraine in opposition to a future Russian assault. And to that finish, we have to deploy European troops. To this point, the coalition of the keen have been extra a coalition of the ready. Now we have now to behave, and I'll take heed to that in Munich.

KELLY: That is Anders Fogh Rasmussen, who served as each secretary common of NATO and as prime minister of Denmark. And I'll notice, my staff and I are headed to Germany too. We're flying tonight, and we're trying ahead to bringing all of you listening full protection as world leaders and diplomats collect for the Munich Safety Convention this week. Mr. Rasmussen, thanks to your time. See you in Munich.

RASMUSSEN: Thanks.

(SOUNDBITE OF SAM EVIAN SONG, "CAROLINA")

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